Deaf

1. 0:07Today is July 7th, 2003. We're in Lubbock, Texas. And I'm here with Hollis and Ernestine Maynard as part of the 20th Century Missionary Memoirs Project, what we did and what we learned. And my name is Ben Walker. I'll be doing the interview. Hollis, I'd just like to ask you to first tell us your names and a little bit about your family background. Okay. Our family background.
2. 0:37First of all, I am Hollis Maynard and my wife Ernestine. And we met at Harding. And as a matter of fact, we met in the sign language class. And she came with a very good friend of mine. One time when he was out of the country for a while, I met her and started dating. I have...
3. 1:06Two brothers and two sisters. And we have three children. Tim is now living in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Kay is in Memphis, Tennessee. And Sharon is in West Virginia, Bunker Hill, West Virginia. All three of our children signed. They've signed since infancy, just about. Ernestine, you want to tell a little bit about your family? I'm from Missouri. I'm an only child.
4. 1:37and went to Harding, where we met. And I guess, other than my children, that's about the extent of my family. We have six grandchildren. Our son, Tim, has three children. And our daughter, Kay, in Memphis, has one. And the daughter in West Virginia has two children. I was born in Happy, Texas. But I really grew up in Canyon, Texas, and from there I went to Harding.
5. 2:30the overview of our mission work. I have never lived overseas. Usually we think of mission work as overseas, but since mission work really is working with another culture, our work has been with the deaf. And we, as we said earlier, we were in the sign language class at Harding, and that's just where we met. When we were at Harding, we'd go to Little Rock on Sunday.
6. 2:59to teach the deaf and preach to the deaf. When I first began working with the deaf, I had no idea of continuing in this work. I just thought, well, this is a neat work or neat language. I'll learn it because wherever I go, I may have a chance to use it. And so I did this. Just before we graduated, or I graduated from Hardy, she was two years.
7. 3:29behind me in school. We went to Indianapolis and began the work for the deaf there from zero. We began the work and built up to about 45 members and two years and nine months or so like that. Then I went to Louisville, Kentucky where I lived 20 years and likewise built the church from zero to
8. 3:57about 45 or 50. And after being there some time, I came to Lubbock, to Sunset School of Preaching it was at the time. At this time, I had been very concerned about being able to teach people in different areas. For instance, I would baptize someone, maybe a young man.
9. 4:27I remember, and he, with his family, moved to Cleveland, Ohio. And I thought, you know, the deaf can't go to heaven from Cleveland. There were very few areas that had worked with the deaf. And so this concerned me. When I received the call to come to Sunset, I began to realize that, yes, the deaf from anywhere in the world can.
10. 4:56go to heaven. After being here just a very short time, I received a call to go to Kenya to help start the work with the deaf there. And I've been to several other places, including Mexico City and go to Rome, maybe a lot, but several other nations. So I have also preached, I've forgotten, I think there are maybe 30 states in the United States.
11. 5:35What sort of influences? So the question then is what influences were in my work. I was studying German, and I was planning to go to Germany as a missionary. And one day in Armstrong Hall there at Harding, my room is at the very end of the hall, the very last room, and about halfway down the hall, someone opened the door, and somebody else pushed me into the room. So I stumbled in where...
12. 6:07Bob Anderson and several other people were seated. We were going down to what we then called Vespers. Now we call it Devotion, Vivo. But I thought, well, these people hadn't been coming to Vivo, or Vespers. And so I waited a minute and said something about, you know, it's time for Vespers again. They said, yes, it is. You're sitting on the pulpit. You know those dorm rooms, you have two beds, two desks, and one chair here.
13. 6:35Someone put a song book on the back of this chair and started moving his hand. And I looked, my mouth fell open, you know. And then someone else put a Bible on the back of that chair and started moving his hand. And I was really surprised. And so after that, I said, what is this? And someone said, well, this is sign language. This is what we use to teach the deaf. To my knowledge, I'd never met a deaf person. I never thought whether deaf people...
14. 7:06I have a soul. I never thought whether, I guess, first of all, whether they be deaf people. Maybe I'd heard of Helen Keller, I don't know. But this was the first influence on my life. The first break, I guess it was a thank you, came home to Canyon, Texas, and was signing. And one lady came up to me and asked, you know, what are you doing? I said, oh, this is sign language.
15. 7:36how deaf people communicate. And she said, yeah, I know I have three deaf nieces. I told her that I was studying German. I was going to Germany as a missionary. And she said, why are you going to Germany? There are no preachers for the deaf in America. And I said, there are not. And as it turned out, I did become the first full-time missionary and preacher for the deaf in the Churches of Christ. I guess...
16. 8:04Some of maybe the strongest input on me has been Bob Anderson. Bob grew up with a deaf brother, and he was at Hardy, and he was learning sign language. But he had just really influenced me very strongly to continue in the deaf work. Of course, you know, when I learned the language, I fell in love with it. Do you think of who else was a strong influence in our lives?
17. 8:35Lloyd Williams is a deaf man. He grew up in the Houston area. He's been a couple of years older than me, but we've been many places in the world together. When I first met him, in fact, Gordon. Yes, Gordon. On our honeymoon, we went to Houston and held a gospel meeting for them there. Ernestine just mentioned Gordon Crocker.
18. 9:04the first Deaf preacher that I'd met. He was living in Pamper, Texas, and was driving to Amarillo and suddenly used to preach. And I heard that, you know, there was a church for the Deaf day, and so I went up and visited. And I fell in love with Gordon, and he was maybe the first really strong input in my life. Just, I don't know the language and the Deaf people in general.
19. 9:34They fell in love with him. I don't have any noble reason for learning the sign language. I happened to know a young man that was in the sign language class, not Hollis. And so I was taking every opportunity I could to be around the sign man. And he went to sign language class, so I went to sign language. And I really never expected to do anything with the deaf.
20. 10:07Like Hollis said at first, it was just kind of a fun thing to do. But then that was my first year at Harding. And the second year then is when Hollis and I started dating. And so when we became serious, I realized that probably it would be a big part of my life. That young man was Mike Moore. The teacher of sign language at Harding was Sam Roach. He was hard of hearing.
21. 10:36I went through a deaf school a year or two at Gallaudet University. Gallaudet College was at that time. What sort of preparation did you have for reading the Bible or your preparation? Well, our preparation in sign language was very, very simple. Sam Roach had one sheet of paper and it had 500 words on it. He taught us, this is vocabulary. Didn't go into the...
22. 11:12language of the deaf at all. In fact, he was being hard of hearing, kind of proud that he could hear, and that he could speak English. But the deaf language is totally different from this. So when we would go to Little Rock, I would be with some of the deaf, and I would want to ask them some signs, just extending the vocabulary. So during the week, I'd write down some words, and when I would get there, I would ask.
23. 11:41One lady, a young lady especially, Yvonne Letters. Now she is Yvonne Brayden, but that was in Little Rock. So I would check with her and give her a list of words there. When I graduated from Harding, I said, you know, the deaf languages don't use the same grammar. The word order is different.
24. 12:09And I said, I know sign language, but I don't know the deaf language. So when we went to Indianapolis, we just pretty much just gave ourselves completely to the deaf. Just almost cut the hearing out and just lived among the deaf. Of course, that may be an overstatement that we did have several hearing friends also, but we just really strived to learn how the language was different.
25. 12:39And so this was just pretty much on our own. And we developed this, and then I was able to teach it to others. As far as the Bible training is concerned, of course, I was a Bible major at Harding. Well, that was the first year. And then I changed. I majored in biblical languages. But my Bible training was there at Harding. I think he said that we did.
26. 13:10just immerse ourselves in the Deaf. We visited the Deaf. I had really thought I would probably get a job because our salary was very, very small. We were with a small church, and so they weren't able to pay us much. But anyway, I thought I would get a job, but I wasn't able to because Hollis needed to do a lot of visiting, and it's just not a good idea to go into a...
27. 13:38home, because usually the lady's there by herself, and so you go in visiting, he wanted me to be with him. So that's what we did every day, and then we had classes at night. I was very poor in San Francisco at that time. Well, I couldn't speak very well with my hands, and I couldn't understand very well either, but when we left Indianapolis, I had learned to understand them.
28. 14:09Simply by, I never talked. I never, that's an exaggeration. But I seldom talked. I watched. And just by watching, I learned a great deal. And so when we left, I wasn't very good. But I was sure a lot better than I was when we moved to Indianapolis. You could consider $40 a week a small salary? Wow. It was then. Yeah. And she said...
29. 14:48Ernestine, as she said, watched more. And so she learned to understand the fingerspelling better than I did. When it first started going out, you know, I would speak while I signed, and then I would tell her what the deaf were saying. And it wasn't very long before she started correcting me. No, they spelled another word.
30. 15:08And then pretty soon I'd say, what did they spell? I'd make this excuse that she was watching more and I was talking more. But I don't know. The preparation we've had is just simply being around the death and learning from the death. Other than that, I mean, there was no formal training at all. How long did it take you to... I don't think I felt comfortable with the death for at least the time we were in Indianapolis. Now, I taught a class.
31. 15:45And as long as I was doing the talking and they weren't asking me questions, you know, or making a lot of comments, I did okay. But I did not feel comfortable in a conversation because I didn't understand them well. He did much faster than I did. I taught a Bible class after two weeks in sign language and preached my first sermon after six weeks. That's just because there was a list of people and I was down on the list.
32. 16:14But I could sign rather quickly. I mentioned a young lady, Yvonne Leathers, Yvonne Braden. She told her husband, when we met him a few years later, that I learned facial expressions first and then the language. And the facial expression is very, very much a part of the deaf communication. I illustrate that sometimes by saying this sign for many and this sign for people.
33. 16:44I may say, were there many people or how many people? So, anyway, there's a whole lot more involved in the language than this. But still, as she pointed out, we didn't understand the deaf as well. I could understand them if they were talking to me. But for the first, I'm going to say, three years, because we were just picking up while we were at Harding,
34. 17:13If they were talking to each other, I wouldn't understand them. But if they talked to me, I could understand them. But then when we, as you said, immersed ourselves into the deaf language, we were able to understand them better quickly than any. It was two or three years. I would never be able to eavesdrop. I could stand right next to them, and they could say anything they wanted to, and I didn't know what they were saying. But I can do that a little bit now.
35. 17:44I can understand, you know, their conversations. But it was funny because they, when we were getting ready to leave, they were planning a going-away party for us. And when they gave the party, we were very surprised. And I think Hollis asked them, when did you do all this planning? And they said, right in front of you. So it just showed that we did not understand them that well. But that was two and a half years. That's been a few years ago.
36. 18:18You were in Indianapolis, how long? A little over two and a half years, two years and nine months, I think. About 20 years and nine months? Yeah. How big was the... In case you didn't get that, he was asking how long we were in Indianapolis was about two years and nine months and about 20 years in Louisville. I think, again, 19 years and nine months or something like that. Generally speaking, the deaf population will be about one per thousand.
37. 18:55If there's a town of 10,000 deaf, I mean, people, you'd expect about 10 deaf or something like this. And so 300,000 deaf, maybe 400,000 in Indianapolis. I mean, hearing, population of 400,000, maybe 400 deaf or so. But Indianapolis was the center. So it was probably maybe 1,000 deaf in Indianapolis. A lot of deaf from...
38. 19:24the southern states moved up, especially during World War II. A lot of people moved from the south to the north for employment and to work in some area that they wouldn't have to go to service maybe. But a lot of deaf moved up just to get jobs. There will be a lot more deaf people where there are factories, that sort of thing, in a rural area.
39. 19:52There are not very many deaf people because there's nothing for them to do unless their parents happen to own a farm, and they would farm with their dad or something. But you will find more deaf people where there are more job snatchers, and the factories offered those jobs. Also, the state school for the deaf was in Indianapolis. Each state has a school for the deaf, with a couple of exceptions. And California has two schools for the deaf.
40. 20:25But a lot of the deaf would come from the smaller towns around and go through school. And upon finishing school, then they just stay in Indianapolis for work because their friends are there and even such as that. Can you tell us a little bit about the culture? I mentioned earlier the language. The language is not the same. We assume that it is.
41. 21:07It is not the same. I use the word over, for instance. O-V-E-R. Well, it may mean to go over the hill. Or it may mean, say that again, seeing them over again to me, what a word is like. It may mean, you know, the class is over, it's finished. It may come over to my house or move over.
42. 21:36there'd be a different sign for each meaning, generally speaking. But also, the deaf did not go up with a hearing, in a hearing environment, even though their parents probably were hearing. Only about 5% of the deaf are hereditary deaf. And so, or born deaf, I shouldn't say hereditary. Yeah, that's right, I did mean that. But anyway, so,
43. 22:07They have deaf brothers and sisters, deaf parents, but they still grew up differently. If you had twins that were born and one was deaf and one was hearing, the parents wouldn't know that for a while until they were old enough that they should be responding and one responded and the other one didn't. When the dad came home from work, the hearing child would hear the car and run to the door or something like that. The deaf child would stay.
44. 22:37where he was. The hearing child would learn to speak very early. The deaf child would not and wouldn't have very much communication unless the parents realized the deafness and took steps to communicate or at the time they did. The deaf child would go to school, go to school for the deaf. Often they would go at age three.
45. 23:06Even though it may be from several miles away, they'd come to a school for the deaf. And so they would learn with these people, with the deaf instead of like with the hearing. But when they come to school, they'd have almost no vocabulary. Therefore, when a deaf child, even when he graduates from their high school,
46. 23:34You probably would have a reading level, maybe fourth grade, fifth grade, something like this. Now, some of the deaf are very sharp and go on through and learn to speak very well, but generally not. The majority of them would not. So, you know, they just grow up with each other and don't have the training from the parents. Often they're made to feel inferior because...
47. 24:05I mentioned Bob Anderson. He had a deaf brother, but his brother's a year older than Bob. But the parents probably wouldn't let the brother, Louis, go across the street, but they would let his younger brother go across the street when they were very young. And, you know, he started a newspaper route. Well, the younger brother had to teach the deaf brother how to do these things.
48. 24:34feel inferior and sometimes would be resentful and sometimes in a family many things would be carried on without instructing or consulting the deaf person. So they often became very resistant and suspicious of the hearing. So there generally would be a suspicious culture.
49. 25:05It's not really in the deaf culture to say please or thank you. They didn't learn that from their parents. And sadly they didn't learn it at the schools of the deaf. So it doesn't say that they're not appreciative. It just says they don't express it the same way. But if you go to someplace outside the United States, they may be more polite than we are in some way.
50. 25:34The deaf are very, very blunt. They will tell you right off. They can hurt your feelings. And do. And they don't mean to. But, you know, we're just not used to somebody walking up to you and saying, you know, you're really getting fat. We just don't do that. They do. If you are. Or ugly whatever else. They're very, very blunt. And they are the one another.
51. 26:04It's not just the hearing people. They are for one another. And they're used to it. They can accept that from one another. Why do you think that is? Is it partly due to just the language and trying to say things quickly? I think the reason of this is just the way they grew up. And they just would tell someone very plainly, very bluntly. There's a difference in the United States and the North, the Yankees, which they did.
52. 26:33down in the south and down in the south. The culture is not the same. And they are more blooded in the north, but the deaf are even more so. I don't think it has anything to do with wanting to say something quickly. That's just, you know, that's just the way they say things. And they're just being honest. Usually it's
53. 27:00It is an honest statement. It's just that hearing people don't express themselves that way. We try to be honest, but we tone it down as much as we can. And they don't. They're just honest. Again, the deaf people are quite dependent. They are that way because that's the way they were trained to be, I would say. A deaf man, a friend of mine, James Russell,
54. 27:30His parents helped to teach me signs in Little Rock, and then I met him later. But he explained to me that at the School for the Deaf, if they needed some paper, all they had to do was just say, give me some paper. And at the School for the Deaf, they had training, vocational training. Part of it was printing, and others would be auto body and mechanics.
55. 27:58But another part would just be working the laundry. And so they had this laundry and they took care of all of the needs, the laundry needs of all of the school. So if a kid's out playing and falls down and gets his clothes dirty, well, it's okay, just send it to the laundry. They didn't have a mother there to say, look, I don't work my hand and fingers to the bone. I work and, you know, don't get your clothes dirty. But, you know, they just...
56. 28:28with whatever, anything that they needed, they just asked for it and they got it. The books were provided, and early at least the paper was provided, and whatever was needed was provided for them. And so they got out of school and then said, give me, give me, give me. They're dependent in communication. As I said, just...
57. 28:56One-tenth of one percent of the population is deaf. So most of the deaf have deaf neighbors. If they go to a store, they talk with hearing people. I said deaf neighbors. I don't think. I meant hearing neighbors. So they may depend on the hearing neighbor to make a phone call for them or many things. So they don't hesitate to ask people to do things for them.
58. 29:24Often it's needed, very needed. They just go up very dependent. And I think this is especially true with their preacher. They are very dependent. And they just expect you to do a lot of things. I think a hearing preacher, often the congregation does a lot for that hearing preacher. And doesn't expect, well...
59. 29:55They expect things, but different kind of things than the deaf do. But when the deaf have, when there's a church for the deaf, the deaf will just rely on the preacher for nearly everything. I mean, they used to come to our house to make long-distance calls. One lady called us one day and said she needed it, needed Hollis, and gave an address. And he really thought it was an emergency, rushed right over. She'd bought groceries that day.
60. 30:24and she needed a ride home from the grocery store. And that was across town, 20 miles away. That was in Indianapolis. And she thought nothing of it. Well, that's the kind of thing that bothers wife. Now, I don't know how much it bothers her, but it bothered me a great deal. And you have to get over that kind of thing because it happens often. And, well, the preacher is expected, you know, churches.
61. 30:55You'd think it would be a quiet place. But if you have children, it's just not, it's really hard. It was hard for me to worship when I first started going to church with the deaf. Because if the parents are deaf and the children are hearing, even if they're deaf, I guess, but the parents don't hear them. And if the parents are really interested in the sermon, then their attention is there. They're not looking at their family.
62. 31:26And the children make a great deal of noise. Because they're not trained, every place we've ever been, there's never been a church. You know, as he said, we started from zero. So there was nothing there. These families didn't know how to behave in church. And it takes a while to get used to that kind of thing. We mentioned the difference in the language. And because of the difference, most deaf people did not learn to read well.
63. 31:56I mentioned that earlier. Therefore, if they, you know, they may get a letter from whatever, maybe called to be on the jury or something, and they may assist from the government, and so they may think they're in trouble, so they bring it to us to read it. They can't understand their insurance policies. Of course, many of us can't either, but many things such as this they're not able to understand.
64. 32:28It has happened a couple of times. I remember one member had bought a car, and they traded it. It was really a terrible situation. Another person I heard of, I didn't know this person, bought a car and thought the down payment was a total price. But they just really did not understand these things. Another deaf person called me over, and they had a big set of encyclopedias.
65. 32:58You know, what did I do? How did I get these? Well, a salesman came to the door and talked a little bit and said, sign this. And they did. But not knowing that they had ordered a set of encyclopedias. Used to. You know, you didn't have the guard that you do today. Like that person today, you have, what is it? Three days to cancel. Something like that you can cancel out. But again, that's the case where...
66. 33:26Well, they need a hearing person. And if they have a preacher, if they go to church and they have their preacher, that's who they'll call on, more so than family. Because so often the family, if they know sign language, it's very simple. They're not skilled, and so it's hard for family to be interpreters. And used to, the deaf had to rely on somebody.
67. 33:55Today, you have associations that provide interpreters, and the interpreters are paid. But when we first started working, there weren't any. And so everything you did, you did for free, which was okay. I mean, we were paid by the church. But still, that is very time-consuming. And so it takes time from the family. I think the Lord was very good to us in that he did not give us children for six years.
68. 34:24Because I think if he had, I would have raised those children, you know, which is not good. But it would have been up to me because Hollis was just thinking all the time. And also I was able to work with him in those cities. And I think that made a difference. You know, when we discuss culture, well, usually you point out the things that are different. A lot of things are the same.
69. 34:53And sometimes when we're pointing out the things that are different, it may begin to sound negative. But there are a lot of very positive things about the deaf. They can be very, very supportive, you know, when you gain their confidence. You have their confidence and you won't lose it. And while we said that they don't express the appreciation much, but they do have their appreciation. So anyway, there are many positives.
70. 35:23things also. But generally speaking, they're just like we are, just that they don't hear. But because they don't hear, it does influence their home life, their education, etc. Are deaf people typically open to the gospel? Typically open. I would say probably the percentage would be about the same. They did not grow up hearing the Bible story.
71. 35:57And they don't, you know, another thing, and this may be part of the deaf culture, also they don't learn as much, Lloyd Williams said, hearing people learn more in accidents than the deaf people do on purpose. For instance, if you go to a restaurant and you're sitting there, you hear the people at the next table talking. The deaf don't. And so the deaf don't pick up on the religion, et cetera.
72. 36:29But as far as being receptive, yes, they are quite receptive. And generally speaking, you know, when we go into a community, we may have a larger percentage of the deaf population in church than the hearing congregation will, percentage-wise, because generally there's not that many deaf works in a particular location.
73. 36:59And so they are receptive, but generally speaking, I'd say that the deaf people, if you invite them to anything, they're going to say, what's in it for me? And you go to church, what's in it for me? If their parents were religious and took the kids to church, they probably had sat there and just looked around and had no clue.
74. 37:30about what was going on and been bored to death because they had to sit for an hour or two hours and knew nothing and any child that you know three to six years old well even older if you have to sit for two hours and you know nothing that's gone on it's just not good you don't like that another thing i think uh religiously speaking the death has not had any well they have had
75. 37:58little moral training because usually a mother can't talk to her daughter about things. A father can't talk to his son because so many times hearing parents are not encouraged to learn sign language so they can communicate. They want the educational people, or at least this was true a few years ago, they wanted the deaf people to learn to lip read and to speak. For sure, that's ideal.
76. 38:29But there are some who can't. And so you've got to communicate with them some way. But the parents were never able to. So that they can't help them. And, you know, this is the proper thing to do. This is the better thing to do. They don't have any of that training. And so by the time they're adults, 30 years old, you know, often they've gone through a couple of marriages or affairs. And it's just they don't realize that it's wrong.
77. 39:00Nobody ever told them. When you go to the deaf schools, as many of them spent their lives there, from the time they were maybe four years old until they were 20, because often it takes a little longer to get through the deaf schools. They didn't have any kind of training. And the examples they saw from their teachers were very bad examples. And that's what they learned. And so they see nothing wrong with that.
78. 39:30And sometimes they're amazed if you can show them that that is wrong. They didn't know it was wrong. So in that way, it's a little hard. But once they accept that that's wrong, then they can certainly make a change pretty quick. Prior to television, the deaf, they could go to movies, but they're limited in understanding of the movies.
79. 40:02But if you have anything going on for the deaf, if we had a church service and we started inviting the deaf, they'd come. And if we had a gospel meeting for the deaf, oh, they'd come. A good percentage of the deaf would attend a gospel meeting and therefore would learn and many of them would give their lives to Christ. Sometimes, however, in a gospel meeting, they'd come and would be excited.
80. 40:30you know, won over by the lesson, but, you know, not realizing what was involved in the Christian life. And so maybe or may not continue. Yeah, right. So that's a whole lot more involved there, but as far as them being willing or even able to make the change in the life that they need to make. So, yeah.
81. 41:12As far as our strategy in teaching the gospel, likewise, we were little pioneers and didn't know much what to do. So, as Ernstine mentioned earlier, we just would go out and meet with the deaf. And I remember the first people that were baptized.
82. 41:42Last name was Hocker, H-O-C-K-E-R. But I went to their home and invited him to come to church. Well, he was a baker, and so he had to go to work about 5 o'clock every day and on Sunday also. So he said he wasn't able to come to church. So I said, well, would you like to have a class in your home? Is that possible? And so we did. We went to their home. I don't remember. Probably.
83. 42:09It wasn't a Thursday night because our midweek service was on Thursday there, Tuesday night or something like this. And they asked us if they could invite a friend. I said, sure. Because we didn't know about the small group meetings, et cetera, like this, and that there were folks to invite their friends. But this is pretty much the way we did this. Just went out and started inviting the people to come to church.
84. 42:39And very soon after some of the people were baptized, I began asking the men to lead singing. And we had what we'd call a men's training class, and I was just teaching them the song. I would explain to them what the meaning of the song, and they would then say how they would sign it, how deaf people would sign it.
85. 43:09I'm sure one of the main ways that I learned the deaf language, American Sign Language. Sometimes we'd read that ASL for American Sign Language. Just by asking, you know, teaching them the meaning of the words and the meaning of the phrase, usually. And they would show me how it would be signed. And then very soon I had some of them start preaching.
86. 43:37In the two and a half years I was in Indianapolis, we had, I believe it was seven men that would just preach from time to time. I think today, if you want to start a deaf work, any place, almost every city of any size has a deaf club, and that's where the deaf come once a week, maybe more, but at least once a week. The deaf gather there, and it's purely social. Sometimes it's not...
87. 44:07a very christian atmosphere but still if you want to meet the deaf that's the place to go and so you need when you go to a city you need to find out where and when the death card meets and that is your first usually your first contact if you don't know anybody else in town uh this well you can look in the phone book uh the city probably has a you know a record of something like that in in lubbock look in the phone book
88. 44:39I suppose under deaf. But there is a club for the deaf here that meets weekly. Also, most cities will be some kind of a college, community college or something, and they often will teach sign language and maybe even have a program for the deaf. So check with the education system.
89. 45:10Any city of size also has a public education for the deaf. I mentioned that every state has a state school for the deaf, going in Texas and Austin. That's, what, 500 miles away, huh? But you're in Lubbock to have education from first grade up, even preschool. And you can check with the school system and maybe go in. It's not as easy as it used to be to get there.
90. 45:38the names, etc. But in high school, you can meet people and maybe get a chance to talk with them, maybe talk with them afterwards and tell them what you're doing or something. If you are an educator or if you know someone here, you can ask that person and they will be able to tell you what school has the mainstream for the deaf. For instance, here in Lubbock, you have one in the early education and you have one elementary, you have one...
91. 46:07a school in junior high and a high school. And almost anyone that teaches will know that. You can learn it that way. When I began in each city of Indianapolis and Louisville, the very first thing I would do was be to ask the congregation, each of the members, you know, do you know any deaf? Maybe you have deaf in your family, or maybe you have a deaf neighbor.
92. 46:36And maybe you work with some deaf people. Maybe you see some deaf people walking by your house. Maybe where you go to a restaurant or something, just ask. And usually get some response there. Sometimes they won't think of it. I think in Louisville, after I'd been there three years, a man came up and said, oh, my neighbor's deaf. And hadn't realized it or thought or something like that. But usually by, you know, if you...
93. 47:07uh by word of mouth like this you know if not go to the post office they may know where the deaf people are any business in town do you have know of any deaf here and usually if you can find one deaf person then you find the rest not uh any longer saying uh oh i'm here to to teach the deaf give me your address book but uh you know you just make friends with them and say are there other deaf in the area
94. 47:38Usually they'll even lead you to them. Especially if your signs are decent, you know, and your attitude is good. They'll help you to find the others. They really do appreciate hearing people that know how to sign. And the more skilled you are, the more they appreciate you. But they appreciate anyone. If a hearing person can just say, hello, how are you today? Or, you know, if you live next door.
95. 48:07To a deaf person, learn a little bit. And the deaf appreciate that very much. I think like any culture, they appreciate more. They do appreciate anyone learning their language. And the better you use it, the better it is. However, your own personality, your interest in them is even more important. If a person is kind of clumsy with these signs,
96. 48:37But he's really a nice person. You know, he can win them with his heart. Whereas a person who's kind of proud of himself and is very good with their language, they're going to be turned off by this attitude, even though he's very skilled in their language. What are some things that you've enjoyed? Well, there are many people that we would never have known because they're deaf people, and they're wonderful. Some of our very best friends are deaf people, naturally.
97. 49:13Another thing that I have enjoyed very much is the fact that Hollis and I can talk in a store, in church, across the street from one another, even in separate cars. We can communicate very well with our sign language. It has really been a pleasure for me. I enjoy using sign language. I'm not as skilled as Hollis.
98. 49:43And now it's a blessing because Hollis is quite hard of hearing. And if I could not sign, I'd be repeating things even more than twice. She says that she's not as skilled as I am. She's very, very skilled. And the deaf fellow tell me that her signs are prettier than mine. I do maybe get a little bit more into their language.
99. 50:14I don't know, the less pretty part of it, I don't know. It's just really been awesome to me to learn the language. And I think it is a beautiful language. It is so expressive. Just to see it is just really, it just really is beautiful. She mentioned the people. We had some very, very good friends.
100. 50:42Each city, but I'm thinking right now, the Hoskins and Louisville, that they were just like parents to us. They just adopted us and they're just really beautiful. Another thing that's really beautiful about the deaf community, I remember going to Wichita, Kansas for a workshop. It's one like the Tulsa workshop and all the East. And they invited me to come up and interpret.
101. 51:11Well, I did, but they didn't think to invite the deaf. So I had to go out and meet the deaf. Well, I knew one family there, and they were members of the church, and several had been members of the church in the past. So I got some names from them just when I started visiting. And I remember this young lady, I don't know where she was from, but she was interested in signing me. I said, well, let's go visit the deaf. And at 10 o'clock, well, night, we'd knocked on the door.
102. 51:41And the man came to the door and said, you know, can't hear. And so I signed to him, and immediately he opened his door and said, come on in. And so if you can communicate with the deaf, you can immediately, you're immediately welcomed. So that's not quite as true with a hearing, you know, less trusting. He mentioned going to this.
103. 52:08to the meeting, and they didn't invite the Deaf. What they've done is advertised, just the way any church would do, you know, put it in the paper and different places, maybe they had a TV, but that doesn't bring the Deaf. They need the personal contact, and then they will come, but they won't come seeing anything in the paper. Very few Deaf people would ever respond to either the TV or a newspaper invitation. It must be for them.
104. 52:38I remember going to Canton, Ohio. And likewise, you know, I was just invited to come up. George Benson, the president of the party, was speaking at this citywide campaign. And so they asked me to come up. And so I did. There were no deaf. And they apologized. They said, that's fine. I didn't expect any deaf. Do you have any names? I told them in advance to see. And so they did have a few names.
105. 53:08I went up to Akron and other places, you know, to try to find some deaf. And finally, just at the very last, I knocked on the door of this home. And a very attractive lady came. I was surprised she had a grandchild. Oh, excuse me. So I told her what it was. She said, oh, I saw that in the paper. But I didn't know who it was. And said, is that you're the one, huh? And I said, yes. And she said, oh.
106. 53:37Well, how can I tell the deaf? And I said, well, if you give me the names, I'll tell them. And so she gave me some more names. She said, oh, this one I can call the neighbor, and this one I can call the ad, and so on. So that night we had six deaths. And the next night, 12, and then it increased by six each night. 1824 up to 36 that responded to that call. But none of them came as a result of the newspaper ads.
107. 54:04So the people there said, but we advertise in the newspaper. Sounds like one of the keys to evangelizing with the deaf is. That's right. Exactly. I think that is the key, is to know the language well. And they like to be appreciated. They like to know that you are interested in it. How much work can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing now and also someone with some young people wanting? Okay. I was living in Louisville, Kentucky.
108. 54:46And I got a phone call from Klein Payton. Klein asked me to come and start training preachers to preach to the deaf at sunset. And I said, you know, I couldn't go. If I did, you know, who'd take my place? And it finally dawned on me if I didn't go 10 years later, I would still be wondering who's going to take my place.
109. 55:13And as it turned out, a couple years after I got here, three or four years, one of my students did take my place in Louisville, preach for the deaf in Louisville. But I was invited here really to just teach sign language to the hearing people. And I asked, you know, what if some deaf wanted to come? They said, it's inevitable, they will. And the second year that I was here, I came in 1977. In 1978, Tom Ramey.
110. 55:43He was a deaf man and had become a Christian in Tulsa. He asked if he could come to school and we said, of course. He did. He's now preaching for the deaf in the Dallas area. It's interesting where he is. He has deaf from several nations. I know some from Mexico, some from Japan, from Korea, and I forget the others.
111. 56:11I think it's seven different nations that are represented in that congregation. I am teaching sign language to hearing people. I'm teaching the gospel and Bible training to deaf people. Did I say that right? And also training to deaf and how to preach the gospel. I mentioned earlier that, you know,
112. 56:41Just kind of stay in my little world and try to not even be thoughtful or worried or concerned about the death in other cities. But not let that be my concern, I guess. Just take care of my little place where I am. But soon after I got here, someone asked me to come to Kenya and then to Mexico and many other places.
113. 57:09have had opportunity to have to establish the church in several other countries also. But primarily I'm just training people to preach to the deaf. Now y'all are recording a lot of the tapes. Yes, right. We are recording several of the tapes in the National Studies. So like Richard Rogers and Edward and all of these.
114. 57:42They've put our courses on videotape, and so I'm interpreting several of these. I think I've only completed four of them now, but I want to go ahead and complete the rest. It really would be better if we could just teach it, better than the interpreting, but it's easier to do it the way we're doing it, especially.
115. 58:12If we're doing it in sign language, then Bob Martin wouldn't know when to put the scriptures in properly or something like this or charts and so on. We're doing this, and it hasn't really taken off a great deal yet. There are several of the deaf who have bought some of the courses. We do have one satellite school now.
116. 58:40It's in Jacksonville, Florida. It was the 300th satellite school that was set up. There are others that are interested in starting a school, but haven't done it yet. One thing about the tapes, most of the time when you think of interpreting, you think of a little circle down at the bottom of the screen. That's what you see on TV. If something is interpreted, you have this little screen, and if people are interpreting. But with the tapes that Hollis has done so far,
117. 59:11The deaf don't realize there's anybody else but Hollis, because we hear the sound, but of course they don't hear and all they see. Hollis is the teacher. So at least it's large enough that they can understand it. It's very hard to understand this little circle down here. The question is, what doesn't work? One thing Ernestine mentioned just now, one thing that doesn't work is to just go in and...
118. 59:46to a community to say, here I am, y'all come, or to just advertise, newspaper, TV, or whatever, especially if you don't advertise on the radio for deaf people because they wouldn't be aware of this. You need to be in the people's lives. It usually doesn't work well if you do not really learn their language. If you just learn...
119. 1:00:15some signs or you learn sign language and expect the deaf to come and understand. The majority of them won't. The majority of the deaf want to be taught in their language. And you say this is sign language. Yes, it is. But we mentioned earlier the grammar is different. The idioms are different. They don't use the phrase kick the bucket.
120. 1:00:46so-and-so kicked the bucket, they wouldn't know what it meant. I remember asking a deaf, young deaf lady, what's an idiom if you said the police booked someone? I don't know, hit him with a book. But then they have their idioms, you need to learn those. Wrong zero can mean identical, or several other things like it. Funny zero means serious.
121. 1:01:16Someone's in the hospital, funny zero, serious condition. Or the police, funny zero, they mean business. They're not running around. So their language is different. They expect or they want the gospel to be taught in their language. They don't want to have to learn it, I mean, get it in English. They have to then translate it to themselves.
122. 1:01:44need always to say, yeah, there are several deaf that can understand English just as well as I can and write it better than I can, better in English than I am. I'd say of some of them, I'm thinking of Lloyd Williams, Billy Lovell, Mark Lohenstein, I think they're not deaf, they just can't hear. They're not of the deaf culture. But they want someone who understands their culture, who appreciates their culture.
123. 1:02:16who becomes a part of their culture. I think the death have always appreciated the fact that our whole family knows signs. Now, and have always associated with the death. I think it would be hard for a man who is married with a family to go someplace and the wife and children have no association with the death. I think Hollis said earlier.
124. 1:02:47Our kids learned to sign before they learned to talk. It's a lot easier. And so, not that they were fluent, but they could always talk to the deaf. The deaf could always say things to them. Our children went to the deaf camp. Of course, most of the adults were deaf and the children were hearing, but still, they immersed themselves in the deaf culture that we had. And I think it would be hard if the family...
125. 1:03:16was just apart from the death. It certainly would make it hard on the husband, the preacher. How has your involvement with the death affected you? Well, I think it's just taught from another culture, another language. I really think, other than that, I don't see any negative benefits. They learn to be patient.
126. 1:03:50We were always the last to leave the church because the deaf like to talk. That's one of the few times they have to be together and communicate. I just really can't think of many negatives. I didn't say negatives, really. It's all been positive. It's just that they are very comfortable around deaf people. Sure, now when they see deaf people, they're able to help them. My daughter living in West Virginia.
127. 1:04:21that she taught her husband signs, or we did. And so there was a car out in front of their house the other day, and he went out to see what he could do. Well, those deaf people, I'm sure, were very grateful because they had someone that could help them. And I think all of our kids like to be able to help the deaf. And so I think it's been all good. Back to the thought of what doesn't work. It doesn't work if you just say,
128. 1:04:55We have an interpreted service. Y'all come and sit and pay attention and listen, and when we're finished, you can go your way. This did happen in one area, one congregation I'm aware of. Then I did have interpreted services, and I'm not sure how it happened that the deaf people knew about it or did come, but when they came, they sat down and the...
129. 1:05:23The interpreters just interpreted, primarily in English. But just as soon as they were finished, the interpreters turned away from the deaf, went over and started visiting with their friends. And the deaf were just left, you know. You have to be in the culture. This is true, I'm sure. If you go to any mission field outside the United States, mission field inside the United States, you have to be immersed in their culture, be a part of theirs.
130. 1:05:52culture and certainly welcome them when they do attend. Our other children have also had opportunities, you know, to be of assistance to deaf people, just see them in the store and say, can I help you, or several things such as this. Do you want to say anything about commission work? I don't mind to. We are supported fully by a church in Tullahoma, Tennessee, the Bel Air congregation.
131. 1:06:30As far as our mission work, up until now, Ernestine has been supporting me to go on mission work. She's retired now, and so we're still supporting ourselves on our mission trail and field. But the church in Tallahassee supports us very well, and so we have always been able to take part of that money and put it aside, and that's what Hollis uses for his mission trip.
132. 1:06:59We are well supported, and we are blessed. We've been here for 26 years, and they have been our sole supporter for those 26 years. And they act like if Hollis wants to teach another 5, 10 years, they'd be willing to continue our support. So it's a fine congregation. They're very involved in mission work, and we've been truly blessed. I would love to have a congregation to take on my mission.
133. 1:07:32work, the travel fund, but I'm not good at asking for help. But if anyone hears that and says, well, we sure would like to help that, I'll accept it. Especially in the future, I think it'll be more important. Yeah, the time goes on more necessary. She made me promise that I wouldn't go on but one mission trip a year. But just shortly after I promised that,
134. 1:08:00I went to Russia, and now I'm going to Romania both this year. So I broke my promise immediately. But he enjoys it. And I think, I'm sure that the people there appreciate having someone. And one thing about Hollis, he's very good in language, and so it's easy for him to learn. I mean, Romanian sign language is different than American sign language. So Russian sign language is different from Romanian or American sign language.
135. 1:08:32You do have to learn, at least partially, a new language. Many of the signs are similar, but you have to learn a new language. So the last few days he's been spending his spare time watching your CV and learning Romanian sign language again. We have tapes, so that helps. I've been to Romania, I don't know, a dozen times maybe. Each time I leave one nation, I forget their signs.
136. 1:09:02Because I don't want to have that in my mind when I go to the second nation. When I go back, I'll just learn signs again. I couldn't think of very many Romanian signs, but when I said, oh yeah, I remember those now. If you ask me, you know, teach me Romanian signs, I don't know. But that's the way I do it anyway. I just want to thank you all. No.
137. 1:09:39Well, there's a great need for preachers among the deaf. Very few preachers are anyone working with the deaf anywhere in the world. Yes, there's a church for the deaf in Romania, but that's in one, not even a major city, well, one of the major cities, but it was the 10 or 12 cities larger than this in Romania. There is one church in the Czech Republic.
138. 1:10:08one church for the deaf in Russia. And so just because we've been to a few countries, I get the others still just one in Mexico, too. Opportunity another in Mexico. As far as I know now, just one in Canada or two, but now just one, I think. But even in the States, not very many churches for the deaf in Texas.
139. 1:10:37In Oklahoma, there was two in Oklahoma City area, but I don't think one of them exists now. I think the real need is for congregations to realize that there is a need to have a deaf work. Right now, we have people who would like to work with the deaf, and there's no place that will pay them to work with the deaf. And these people are naturally, they have a family, they have to support themselves.
140. 1:11:07If congregations would just realize that this is a need and would be more supportive of the deaf work, that would be a great help. And for any congregation, remember, there are deaf people in every community. Wherever you are, there are deaf people. I say this, Joe Brose just went up in Kansas, a very small community, I don't know, maybe not over 100, 200 people in there.
141. 1:11:34in the town. And so the nearest deaf person I think is about 10 or 15 miles away. But not only are the deaf people there, the deaf people need the gospel. And so the church has the responsibility of taking the gospel to every person. And that includes them. Okay. You may notice that I stutter and stammer a bit.
142. 1:12:11I don't do that if I'm signing. I should have been signing this whole thing. I'm going to sign the prayer, okay? Father, thank you so much for the wonderful blessing that you've given to us. We thank you for your love for us. We thank you for sending your son here to come here to give up his home in heaven and to come here to earth and live just as we live and to surrender himself for us and to accept.
143. 1:12:41the cross, and through that to forgive our sins. We thank you for our opportunity of telling other people about you, and we thank you for our opportunity of telling people in other nations, of other cultures, and especially now, we thank you for giving us the opportunity of telling deaf people about you in your life.
144. 1:13:09pray that you'd continue to raise up workers for the deaf and continue also to help the congregations in the world to see the need of teaching deaf people about you. In Jesus' holy name we pray.

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